In-Depth

Here's what happens when a magazine shop and a magazine team celebrate a big anniversary As well as being the tenth anniversary of the magCulture shop in Clerkenwell, this year is also the tenth anniversary of MacGuffin, a magazine that tells extraordinary stories about ordinary things. As part of the tenth anniversary celebrations, magCulture founder Jeremy Leslie interviewed MacGuffin founders Kirsten Algera and Ernst van der Hoeven to chat about how they make the magazine and what makes MacGuffin special. Jeremy Leslie: So let's, if we just open with the very, very beginning, tell us what MacGuffin is. Kirsten Algera: MacGuffin is a magazine. It's a six monthly magazine. At least we say it is. Sometimes it's eight months because we're an independent magazine, so we can do whatever we like in that sense. And it's a magazine that always has one object as a theme. So we started with the bed, but we also did the bottle, the trousers, the cabinets. And the reason we started it is because we both worked in the design world and we were a bit frustrated with it, because in the design world it's all about innovation and new objects and new stuff and commercial things, and we were much more interested in the afterlife of objects. So how does it function? How is it used? Can you look at the world through the lens of one object and what do you see? JL: And there's also the element of what people bring to objects and apply to objects and the meaning of objects and the history and the memories. KA: Yeah. I think we always try to have a sort of super kaleidoscopic perspective on what the object is and what it is in the world, how it's used and what people do with it. It can be how it's produced, like for a bottle, you need sand. And this is a very problematic thing because there are a lot of sand wars. It's hard to get. But it can also be about Heineken bottles that are used to build homes in South America. So yeah, we try to be as broad as possible. Ernst van der Hoeven: That's also why we found the word MacGuffin. It's a word coined by Alfred Hitchcock, I think in the 50s or early 60s, that he invented as a sort of a fantasy word to explain to his students that you always need a MacGuffin to start a movie, sort of a movie device that sets the plot in motion. And we were quite amazed that the domain name was not claimed yet by the movie industry in America. So it was for us a beautiful, sort of almost symbolic, title that covers everything, you know, that it's not about the big object, but it's more about the stories behind it. And sometimes not even the biggest things. JL: Sometimes quite incidental things, I mean important things, but things that you take for granted. EVDH: Yeah, more overlooked because they're so hyper-normal. JL: Yeah. And so this was 10 years ago. You explain your frustration with the design world and the quest for novelty and newness. But how did you actually come to sit down and think, 'we're going to make a magazine'? KA: I think we did a lot of research before we started the magazine. So we talked about it with a lot of people and everybody said, don't do it. JL: So people in publishing. KA: In publishing and also curators and people from the design world that we worked in. And everybody said, 'make a website, don't waste all those trees, etc. Make an exhibition'. And we had some experience with magazines. Because I'm from the graphic design world, and Ernst made a magazine before, Club Donny, so we wanted to explore that, and also we had the idea to make something that you can keep and carry with you. So it is sustainable, I think, to make a magazine if it's more bookish and if you can keep it. JL: If it's going to be kept, I mean, that's bookkeeping. KA: And we didn't know that, of course, in the beginning, but that was something that we wanted to try out. So can we make a bookish magazine that is also sort of, it's not an encyclopedia, but it is something that you can read later on as well. EVDH: You also have to recall in that period in the Netherlands, all the art, science and the magazines went bankrupt because the funding stopped. So it was not a logical time to start a new magazine, especially when it is a quite odd sort of thing. JL: There were multiple reasons not to do it. EVDH: Yeah, exactly. Sacrifice all these dreams. JL: But did that kind of fire you up to do it? EVDH: We really believed in the idea, that we'd like to make an antidote for all this big design stuff and all this newness that we thought, 'well, maybe it's more interesting to learn about the context or the afterlife of things'. KA: Our magazines always start with one particular thing that we find, whether it's an essay or a thing or a photo or whatever or a book. And the first thing we find, because we were walking around Amsterdam, we're based in Amsterdam, and we found this mini library that's on the street with free books to get. And there was this one book about animal architecture by a professor from Glasgow. He wrote and he designed animal architecture in such an interesting way. And it was also about nests, and we wanted to do something with the beds for the first issue, because it's the first and the last thing you're in. JL: Did you at that stage then, in deciding bed, did you already have future ideas as well? EVDH: Funny thing that you mentioned nest, because we were discussing about what is then a magazine that we wanted to relate to. And there was Nest that was established in the late 90s in New York by Joe Holtzman. And there was such an odd and such an eccentric magazine that we both kept some of the editions. And we explained to each other about, 'well, if you could make something like this, you know, then you stand out'[. KA: Yeah, so it all came together. So we found this book about nests, we found this professor, we went to Glasgow, we photographed the nests. JL: And at this point, did you have a kind of visualisation in your mind about what it was going to look like and feel? EVDH: Yeah, very much. That's why it was very important for us to find the right graphic designer to work with, because we already had ideas on how the physical should be. KA: Yeah, maybe we have to say that Sandra Kassenaar is like the third wheel, where again she's our graphic designer and we're very much a team of three or even more because there's also a lot of people. JL: That's a really important part of any magazine, isn't it? The relationship between the people, the editors and the art director. KA: Actually that was a bit of a lucky thing that we found Sandra, because we were in touch with Veronica Ditting. She's a graphic designer, she was based in the Netherlands, now in London, and she already did some magazines, so we thought maybe we should go to her. She said, 'I'm too busy, but I have an ex-intern, Sandra Kassenaar, and she's wonderful'. And we talked to Sandra and from the first minute it was clear that this was a perfect match. EVDH: What she understood quite well is that we wanted to make a magazine as an object. And she came in also with a very good idea to use the church art typeface, which is almost analogue. JL: And it's become a vital part of the identity. Of course, a magazine about things, about objects, the object, the magazine and its objectness is really important. We've never talked about this, but I've always felt it. You've spent a lot of time presumably looking at different papers and different formations and different sizes. KA: Yeah, I think we did already a year of research before we really started. And made dummies, or the printer made dummies. So we looked into paper, paper was really important for us. So we chose for this a specific kind of paper that we've been using for 10 years now, it's called Arcoprint Milk, it's a very thick paper in a way. JL: But it's quite light, it’s bulky but it’s also soft. KA: It's very much got a life of its own. And the ink goes in it, almost like a journal. Yeah, so that was important for us. And then we have another paper, which is gloss, which allows us to give it a certain pace and a certain rhythm. Of course the typeface was important, but also what kind of photography, the cover. We spent months looking for a good cover. So yeah, we did do a lot of research into the material things. EVDH: And part of the fun, I think, is also to have a counter-cultural theme and then make something that's almost like a serious glossy, seen as a serious magazine, you know, that people really understand, 'hey, this stands out as a magazine'. JL: You've talked about research in terms of papers and specific things like photographs of the cover. And you mentioned Nest. Did you look at lots of other magazines? Were you looking at other things like that or were you getting inspiration from completely different areas? KA: I mean, we, of course, we look at magazines and we looked at magazines when we started. We even went to Athenaeum, which is a magazine store in Amsterdam. And we were a bit shy there because they've got like 3,000 titles of magazines. So we're, ‘oh, what are we going to do?’ And then we talked to Marc Robbemond who runs the store there. And he said, ‘oh, yeah, you have to do something with animals because that's very popular right now.’ But no, I don't think we look at a lot of magazines, but we are inspired by a lot of things. EVDH: Also uninspired by a lot of things. JL: Yes, that's just as important, isn't it? EVDH: And of course Apartamento, which I liked a lot, because it was not the normal way of presenting an interior, it was just about how people live. And also I like the format, just sort of a small thing that you could take with you, could carry it. Yeah, there are other magazines. KA: But we go to a lot of presentations and exhibitions, we read a lot. EVDH: And the question that people ask is, what is your peer group? What's your audience? And we didn't think about that. We just make it for our own pleasure, for our friends maybe. JL: So you prepare and you pull together issue one, the bed. What along the way of that, what surprises were there? I mean, on one level, sort of everything, the research, the pulling it all together, working with Sandra on the layouts and everything, and she obviously brought a lot of knowledge to that. And you've got a graphic design background, so you're comfortable with producing it. But what were the real challenges? Finding a writer, getting a writer and editing it? KA: Yeah, well, I think for us, the main thing was to get it, because we had Sandra, but we didn't have a final editor. Before Billy came, finding a final editor was really important for us because that's the one who keeps the tone of voice in a way. And that was important to us because we wanted to make a magazine that reflects on things, but not too academic, so in an accessible way. So this tone of voice is super important. And we found Billy, and that was such a good match as well. So I think finding the right people in your team is super important. EVDH: And of course, when you make the first issue, you have to convince people that the ideas you have are working. KA: And you have to find distributors who believe in it as well. And I think for us, the good thing was from the start, we tried to distribute as broad as possible. So all over the world, which was very costly but for us it worked well because the first issue sold out pretty soon. EVDH: And also we launched the first issue in the Salon del Mobile, which of course was quite a good thing to do. JL: It sold out. And then did you get a response? I mean, I guess at the salon you were meeting people, but more generally, how did you reflect on what the reaction to it was? KA: Well, I think what surprised us after the first issue and what's really a very good thing, I think, is that there was so much attention from education and media and the art world and museums for this format, this model, like one object, and doing research into all the perspectives that surround it. So from the very start, I think we were asked to do workshops, to go to art schools, and we're still doing that. For me, that's also what I'm the most proud of, that we have expanded this. JL: So in that respect, it sort of starts conversations, it starts relationships. Do you think, sort of looking back at that stage and the advice that from people surrounding you, do a website, do a website. Could a website have invoked the same reaction? EVDH: No, not at all. No, it's really that you want to keep that. People really want to keep it and want to have the series complete. So it's really a collector's item, which Nest at the time was as well, and people that now have the series of Nest. JL: And the same with Apartamento. KA: But I also think that for longer reads, you cannot do that on websites, so that's also important. And of course, the whole material feeling and everything. We're topical, but not too contemporary in a way, because we want it to be interesting in 10 years as well. And so that worked out because people are still reading the first issue. EVDH: We wanted to broaden the concept of design, but at the time there were more people that were thinking like that. In 2015, Hella Jongerius came out with a manifesto called 'Beyond the New', and that was exactly what we were also trying to establish, that you can look beyond the new. KA: Yeah, we were not the only ones, no. JL: Yeah, so in that respect, there was a zeitgeist. But I also want to just string together a number of things. There are a number of things you've said which might imply to somebody who doesn't know MacGuffin that it's quite serious.You've said you tried to avoid academia in the tone of voice, but talking about it being timeless and not necessarily thoroughly contemporary. But for someone who hasn't seen the magazine, they need to know that it's actually, as an object and as a presentation, it is sort of multifaceted. It is fun. It is very contemporary in lots of ways in terms of design, it’s very well put together, so it has the solidity of academia, but it also has a sort of, not commercial, but it has a playful sort of engagement. You also work hard to engage people, I guess is what I'm saying. So if somebody doesn't know it, they're not going to be faced by a sort of heavyweight journal that's tough to get into. They're going to find something that is an enjoyable experience and that's part of it, right? KA: Yeah, that's part of it. And I think, I hope, we do a lot to accomplish that. So yeah, the main thing to make the magazine is to try to have all the ingredients and give it such a rhythm and pace in the magazine that it's accessible. So it's a sandwich of visual things, and texts and the tone of voice has to be not too serious all the time because.. EVDH: It was not set up as an educational purpose, but a lot of academies, art academies, used the MacGuffin as an example. How to start research and be, start small with one piece, one object, one item, and you can broaden that and deepen it. KA: But for us, it was also very interesting. At first, when we started it, we thought we would make it for the design world, but then when it came out, there appeared to be a whole other world that was interested in it. So for us, it was a very surprising, but also very good thing, of course. EVDH: Storytelling is a big part of it as well. Short stories and essays. JL: And you do have fiction. EVDH: Yeah, true. JL: Well, that brings us to the kind of our shared anniversary. I mean, the magazine is 10 years old and the magCulture shop is 10 years old. And last night we did an event together at the shop to celebrate your 10th anniversary. And that was kind of full circle round from the first ever event we did at the shop, which was with you two. Over those 10 years, how has the magazine developed? It's still very recognisably the same magazine, of course, and people who collect it can have all 15 copies and they absolutely make a beautiful set. From issue one, you must have learned some things that you've applied to issue two, and then for issue three, and how do you think it has changed over those 10 years? KA: In certain ways it hasn't changed a lot, but I do think that when we started it was very much focused on the design world, and now it's much broader. It's also a little bit more socially engaged, I would say. EVDH: The world has changed tremendously in the past few years, for instance. KA: Yeah, the subjects that we’ve chosen in the last years reflect that in a way, because the chain and the letter and the wall are all, I think, very topical. JL: And perhaps more topical than you imagined you would have become. KA: Yeah, I think so. EVDH: The urgency is there. KA: I mean it's a very personal magazine for us. We're both so into making it and so we cannot ignore what we feel. EVDH: Engagement is part of it. JL: Which again feeds back into the fact that it's engaging and accessible and it's personal. It's not a grand academic project, although there's a side of it to that. It's more of a kind of personal statement of what's concerning you and the context into which you're producing. EVDH: It's funny that we have done a lot of research about activism in the past and now you're in this and then it's strange then to not include it. So I think it's a quite logical that we have it in it. KA: But it's very personal and I think also that's what makes the magazine. We both love detours and that's a way of looking and it's a way of making. It’s curiosity. So we always try to follow that as much as possible, it’s always a little bit unexpected maybe because that's the way we think. JL: I mean, this is what a magazine should be. It's a combination of the familiar and the change. And so, I come to a new issue of MacGuffin and I kind of know in one sense what to expect and it comes with a familiar format. There's a series of devices that work on the front cover that come to announce what the issue thing or what the MacGuffin is. And there's the great line, ‘The Life of Things’. People come to me and ask what should they do to make their magazine work, and so much of it is on the presentation of the front cover and the name and the kind of conceptualisation of everything. And then there’s those four words, really succinct. Did it take long to come up with that? Did you struggle over various iterations? EVDH: I think the title was there before, the subtitle was there before. But that's almost a description of what you're going to do. It's about a life of things and not about a thing, you know? KA: Because we had the life of things, and then we thought, 'well, this is maybe a bit too David Attenborough', so… JL: So, that was the starting point as the title of the magazine. EVDH: To describe what you're going to do. JL: Yeah, So, when did MacGuffin come into the mix? KA: Very, very early on. EVDH: And then anything fell in place. KA: But it was such a good term from Hitchcock that sets the story in motion, so it's all about stories, of course. EVDH: There's a beautiful movie where he explains to his students what a MacGuffin is. At the time, you know, how slow people spoke, it's fantastic to see that. JL: But also how slow films were. I mean, if you watch a Hitchcock movie now, you describe it as a thriller, and I mean, it's still fabulous, and I grew up with them and I love the art, the craft of them and everything, but they are kind of, ‘come on, yes, I know you're on the stairs.’ KA: We found MacGuffin because there's this scene in North by Northwest with the plane. And there's a drawing that Hitchcock made with the position of all the cameras. And it's a fascinating drawing because it's like, you won't believe it, it's like 40 or 50 positions, you know, at the same time. It was something that was so inspiring for us, like all these many perspectives on one thing. So that was how we came to MacGuffin EVDH: It almost became a metaphor. JL: But going back to this span of 10 years, I'm very interested in how you've talked about the context into which you're publishing has changed, which I don't think people think enough about. They tend to be very wrapped up in making the magazine and in another six months, we've got to do another one. But it's fascinating to hear you talk about the world has changed, so we are changing. What other elements come into play, external agents, that affect what you do? KA: I think that gradually the world is opening up a little bit for our magazine, so it was very much focused on Europe and the Americas. And now there's much more attention for it in Asia, so we went to Korea and Japan and China. And also I think what changed is that what we started was new when we started, but now I think it's quite a regular view on what an object is and what design is, that it's all about the context and the afterlife of things and not so much about how it looks or how it's commercial or successful or not. JL: And where do you see yourself in that? You talked about launching with that in mind and how it felt like that was the conversation that was beginning to happen. Do you feel that you're at the forefront of that in some manner? Have you led that? Not alone, but I mean, you're part of the leading. KA: I don't dare to say that. JL: Well, I'm putting words into your mouth. KA: But I hope so. EVDH: We were quite advanced. KA: But when we came here this week by train, I was reading an article about the last exhibition in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, they've made an exhibition about used objects, and it's very much a MacGuffin exhibition. Of course we're not responsible for that, but I can see and feel, and also with the students who we talk to, that the perspectives are changing and also what design can do and can not do. EVDH: And we see our subtitle popping up in different places as well. JL: The Life of Things. KA: Yeah, and there's a lot of magazines, presentations that are very connected to what we do, I think. JL: Well, absolutely. I can vouch for that in terms of what we have at magCulture. There are definite magazines that are to some degree, to some very great degree and some to lesser degree that have obviously picked up something about what you're doing. KA: But I have to say, also that's something that I really enjoy. And I think in the last 10 years, MacGuffin did not only expand as a magazine, but also we were a jumping board for young makers. And that was really important to us as well. JL: There are people now who I might be having a conversation with and say, 'I saw a copy, not Nest, but MacGuffin was my starting point. MacGuffin was the one that inspired me'. KA: Yeah, and we get a lot of questions about it. From students who say, 'how do you do it? How do I begin? How can I make a magazine?' EVDH: I think it's very endearing to see young people coming to ‘wow, we love MacGuffin’ you know, so precious. JL: I wonder now if you were starting a magazine 10 years on, whether if you went around to people, they would be so defiantly, ‘you've got to do a website.’ I mean, I'm sure a lot of people would say that. Certainly I know that myself and magCulture are in a bubble in terms of the wonderful world of independent magazines. Of course they exist, but there's still plenty of people who have no idea they exist. But I wonder whether there's more of a sense of understanding that actually print is an option and perhaps people would be a bit more positive if you were doing it now? KA: I think so, totally. Maybe it's not such a bubble anymore as well. At least for people who are culturally interested. I was in Paris at Parsons at a fashion department. And it was really fascinating because all the students in fashion made magazines. They didn't make clothes, but they made magazines. So yeah, it's much more accepted as a presentation form, I would say, than it was 10 years ago. EVDH: Almost like a curating tool. And that's also what we say. We could be curating a magazine, we could also curate an exhibition in the same way. KA: 10 years ago was another time when everybody was talking about print is dead, and, of course, it proved not to be dead at all. It's very much alive. JL: The book that I did called magCulture back in 2003 was talking about exactly that, saying that even then, I mean, 20, 25, 30 years ago, people were saying that the print is dead and here we are talking, and you're 10 years into a run of magazines that have been successful on many terms. EVDH: If the topics are meaningful and the way you make it, it's durable, I think. It will always stay. KA: And the other thing I find really interesting, I was talking about it last night with Kandace Walker who did a talk last night. She's a writer, short story writer, but she also wants to explore how a magazine can be performed. And that's really interesting. And for us as well, because we've made exhibitions in the past in which we always try to make a magazine in exhibition form. So it's also something that is worth exploring and expanding in the magazine world. JL: In lots of conversations about magazines, we quite often overlook the vital part of the magazine, that is the reader. And you have mentioned the reader but I'd like to just maybe end with looking at who the readers are and what you know about them, and when you meet them, how do you find them? KA: Yeah, I think that's why it's so nice to do talks and presentations and workshops, because then you really actually get to talk to people who read it. I think the interesting thing is that everybody reads it in a different way. Some people go for texts, other people go for images, and other people go for both. So, the readership is, in our case, very broad. EDVH: A lot of formats in it, so there's a long read, an essay, or an interview, or an official essay. So, there are many ways to get the content to your audience. KA: Yeah, and sometimes it's also nice to talk to people, because everybody thinks that we're a huge organisation. So we got interns for the first time in our office, and they look around the corner and say, ‘where is everybody?’ EVDH: And then we are based in Amsterdam, making an English magazine. It's not logical for many. JL: On that, from the very beginning it was going to be in English. KA: Yeah JL: In order to reach the world. KA: Yeah. JL: You've talked very clearly about tone of voice and making what are very disparate types of stories understandable to the reader. You both have very good English, but it's not your first language. Has that been a struggle? KA: In writing, I would say no, because we have this wonderful English, native English, final editor. EVDH: Irish final editor. JL: Important to clarify that! KA: And he's super clear so he can always rewrite. EVDH: And he is also very clever. He doesn’t like bollocks, you know, he wants really clear text, understandable. KA: And we've got translators and I think the contributors are almost always English speaking, so that's not really a problem. EVDH: I think the handicap in the Netherlands is that we think that we speak very good English, which it’s not, of course, when you compare it to a native speaker. JL: I mean, speaking is one thing. Speaking and communicating, having a conversation is easy, but actually writing is another level of complexity. KA: Yeah, but I think our reading is better than our writing. EVDH: Yeah, communication is 80% in English, KA: In the Netherlands, I have to say in all the shops in Amsterdam, we speak English. JL: I mean, I know as a visitor, everyone speaks English, and everyone has very good English. We can have conversations about quite complicated things and there's no issue with understanding. You have good English. But it's still a difference. I expect really, if you were publishing in Dutch, you'd probably find it easier. KA: Maybe it's a good question for you as well. Do you, when you read MacGuffin magazine, do you notice somewhere that there's a Dutch element? EVDH: In the directness, maybe? JL: Yes, actually, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, what I was saying about the front cover is, MacGuffin, 'The Life of Things', is very direct and upfront in a way that perhaps an English publisher might be a bit more unable to achieve, but it's a positive. I think there's been twice, because I do read the magazines, and I think there's been twice where I've read something and thought, 'that doesn't sound right'. Literally, but that's, you know, 15 issues, and I can't remember where it was, but yeah, a little turn of phrase which is just slightly out. But that's what I mean, that's very good. I’d find that in an English one, right? The other aspect, and we crossed on it a little bit with where you talk about the variation of different types of content, the long form and short pieces and everything. And this is something which I've mentioned to you or I've written about before, but one of the things I love about MacGuffin is, or I'm impressed by with MacGuffin, is that the design and layout and the construction and the pacing and the series of the stories is really, really complex. It's really quite dense. And there's a really strong visual language going on in terms of the, not many typefaces, but there are several typefaces that have different jobs and stuff. KA: Two, yeah. JL: Just two? EVDH: It took us a year to establish that. JL: To narrow it down or to choose the two or to realise you only needed two? EVDH: Well, to find a template, a sort of backbone for the whole structure for the whole magazine. JL: But it's always impressively full. There are a lot of magazines that are very luscious and beautiful and have large spreads of beautiful photography that just go on forever, and then they have a whole page for a headline, and your magazine is really dense and full. Do you see it like that? Is that deliberate? KA: Yeah I think so. It’s getting more full. Because now we use three columns sometimes, it used to be two columns, which is a good thing because it’s getting more dense. It’s more magazine-like, less bookish. But my favourite part of making the magazine is not only the research but making the flat plan. That’s something I really enjoy, where everything comes together, and really by drawing it, you feel like ‘ok, this is how dense it should be’. And I’d rather have it dense and thinner than expand it. But of course you also need some rest points in the rhythm. JL: There are magazines that are much easier to pull out a hero spread and say ‘this is a beautiful spread from magazine x’, whereas with your magazine, I think it’s quite hard to find one single spread that sums it up because actually you have to look at the whole thing and the way that stories end on the left and begin on the right, there’s a red background and a white background. In that sense it’s even more of a thing, it’s all interconnected, you can’t just pull out a bit. EVDH: Our last issue, The Stitch, is how many pages? Less than we have normally. But you don’t feel that because it’s so rich. People don’t feel the difference, or experience the difference. KA: In the interviews that we do, we’re always asked, ‘how did you do it?’ EVDH: As if there is a plan behind it. KA: And then we tell what the plan was but most of the time it grows very organically. That’s also what we like about it and what we’re good at. EVDH: We’re very slow in learning also. It takes us ten years! JL: But slow is doing it properly, isn’t it? KA: Time is essential I think. EVDH: And we are independent so we can take our time. We are our own publisher, so that helps too. Lead image credit: Blommers Schumm

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